865.01/393

Memorandum of Conversation, by the Assistant Secretary of State (Berle)

Count Carlo Sforza51 came in to see me, at my request.

I said that I had understood that, following his conversation with Secretary Hull52 he had requested passage to London, and that the British Government had felt that it could not facilitate his passage. I asked if this were true.

Count Sforza said it was: he had applied to the British Embassy who had enthusiastically welcomed the idea; had cabled to London; had been turned down. Count Sforza said he could not understand this in view of the fact that Churchill53 had written him the most effusive letters.

I then said that I had conferred further with Secretary Hull and wished to state that we would be glad to endeavor to arrange his passage to North Africa. I said that this was on the understanding that he would go, of course, as a private citizen and on his own responsibility. We considered that we were not endeavoring to mix in Italian politics, but merely to let a prominent Italian go to a point from which, perhaps at an appropriate time, he might return to Italy and submit his views to his own people.

I added that as Count Sforza knew, there was a fighting front in Italy; and that I thought it would be impossible to arrange passage [Page 403] at this time farther than North Africa. From there out, the military people would have to control passage of individuals, and he would simply have to do the best he could. Through our representatives there he could get in touch with the army officials and state his case.

Count Sforza nearly exploded with gratitude and literally with tears in his eyes made a long speech about the possible use which he might be in Italy, especially if the Badoglio54 regime were to fall to pieces, and so forth. He said that he would treat this confidentially. I said he could do that of course but that this was not a secret arrangement but a quite open transaction.

Count Sforza then said that the Embassy had told him here that if the State Department wished to indicate to London that it was interested in his trip, then he conceivably might go to London. I said I would raise that question for consideration with our people but I did not express a view on the point. Count Carlo seemed to think in any event that he would rather go to North Africa direct.

I told him we would do what we could on transport service but as he well knew the military forces claimed priority.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

A. A. B[erle], Jr.
  1. Leader of Italian anti-Fascists in North and South America.
  2. On August 16; memorandum of conversation not printed.
  3. Winston S. Churchill, British Prime Minister.
  4. Pietro Badoglio, Head of the Italian Government.