893.0146/871
Memorandum of Conversation, by the Adviser on Political Relations (Hornbeck)
[Note:57 In a telegram from Tokyo no. 966, October 10, 7 p.m.,58 Ambassador Grew reported to the Department to the effect that his British colleague had shown him a long telegram reporting Lord Lothian’s conversation with the Secretary on or about October 7 in which Lothian “quotes you as stating that the American forces in China will be instructed to leave”. It happens that in the course of a conversation with Lord Lothian and Mr. Butler59 yesterday, occasion arose for me to make mention of this report and to venture the opinion that either the British Ambassador in Tokyo or the British Ambassador in Washington or both had misconstrued whatever it may have been that the Secretary of State had said to Lord Lothian on the subject of the American armed forces in China. I said that the question of possible removal of those armed forces had been, of course, and still is under consideration but that no decision to the effect that they “will be instructed to leave” has been, so far as I know, definitely arrived at.]
Mr. Butler came to me this afternoon at his request. He said that his Embassy had received a telegram from London based on a report which Lord Lothian had made some days ago to the effect that the American Government was going to withdraw the marines, and that he would read me the telegram. In the telegram, the Foreign Office stated that the British Government had taken note of the declared [Page 426] intention of the American Government to remove the marines; that, in the light of the action which it had taken three months ago regarding its landed armed forces in China, it could not very well offer suggestions or advice to the contrary, but that it, while making plans to suggest to British nationals that those of them whose presence is not especially needed in China should withdraw, wondered whether the American Government had given full consideration to the possible and probable consequences of withdrawal from Shanghai of the American marines; and it authorized Mr. Butler in his discretion to take the matter up with the Department. Mr. Butler said that, in the light of what I had said to Lord Lothian and him yesterday, he felt that he appropriately could and that he should bring the contents of the telegram under reference to our attention.
I said that I was glad both that I had mentioned the matter to Lord Lothian and Mr. Butler yesterday and that Mr. Butler had given me this information today. I said that I regretted that the British Foreign Office had gained an erroneous impression and that I hoped that Mr. Butler would inform them that, while, in connection with our action toward reducing a number of our nationals in certain regions of the Far East, the question of the marines has been and is under consideration, no conclusive decision has been reached whether or when our marines shall be withdrawn. I said that we have long taken the position and have several times publicly stated that the marines will be withdrawn when in our opinion the situation warrants; but on numerous occasions the question whether the situation warrants has been considered and at no time up to the present has it been felt that the moment for withdrawal had arrived. I said that whenever this question has been under consideration we have given thought to the possible effects and combination of effects of a withdrawal if made; that we have had in mind both the interests of this country and the interests of our people or other peoples legitimately and necessarily concerned; and that in our present deliberations we have these points in mind. I referred also to the fact that it has been informally understood between officials of the Department and officials of the British Embassy that, so far as lay within the power of the said officials, if and when either Government felt moved toward or made a decision involving removal or decreasing or increasing of its landed armed forces in China consultation would be held with the other Government I or advance notification would be given. I said that in my opinion discussion of the subject of what is to be done regarding American marines at Shanghai should be kept within the narrowest possible official circles and should be kept confidential and that I hope that, in informing his Foreign Office of the facts as I had outlined them, as reported above, he would add an expression of opinion and a request [Page 427] to that effect. I added that we do not wish for the moment to give the Japanese the benefit of any indication either that we are planning or that we are not planning to remove these marines at this time or in the near future, nor do we wish either to alarm our nationals or unduly to reassure them, nor do we wish to be publicly committed on either the affirmative or the negative side of this question.