Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958–1960, Arab-Israeli Dispute; United Arab Republic; North Africa, Volume XIII

131. Memorandum of a Conversation, White House, Washington, March 10, 1960, 11 a.m.¹

Washington, March 10, 1960, 11 a.m.

THOSE PRESENT WERE:

• The President
• Prime Minister Ben-Gurion
• Ambassador Avraham Harman
• Douglas Dillon, Under Secretary of State
• G. Lewis Jones, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs
• James C. Hagerty

As the Prime Minister entered the room, the President met him at the door, shook hands with him and invited him to sit down at his desk. The President said that it had been many years since he had last seen the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister said that that was right, and that it was fifteen years ago just after the end of World War II. The Prime Minister remarked that the President was looking well and said that he sincerely hoped that the President was succeeding in his quest to keep the world at peace.

The President thanked the Prime Minister for his remarks and said that everyone wanted peace but that no one seemed to want to sacrifice for it. The Prime Minister injected, “No one?”, and the President said that he meant the Soviets.

The Prime Minister said that he had brought a small and modest present for the President, that it was an album of photographs of DP’s in Germany, many of whom, after having been liberated by the Armies under General Eisenhower’s command, came to Israel and are now good and useful citizens of that country. The President replied that he was very grateful for the present and reminisced briefly on his visits to the concentration camps in Germany. He said he was pleased to receive the album because he was always happy to get any indication of the rehabilitation of any displaced persons.

Prime Minister Ben-Gurion then drew a large sheaf of notes from his pocket and said that he wished to discuss several pertinent matters with the President. He said that he had made some notes that he would like to follow and hoped that the President would not mind if he referred to them from time to time.

The Prime Minister said that he would like first to present to the President an analysis as he saw it of worldwide Communism, its aims and the present thoughts of its leaders. He said that he would do this with some embarrassment because he knew that President Eisenhower certainly was in possession of more information than he had on this subject, but that he thought it might be helpful in opening up the conversation. He said that he happened to know the Russian people, that he was born in Russia, and that he would speak from that point of view.

Prime Minister Ben-Gurion said that as far as the principles of Communism are concerned, in his opinion they were unchangeable; that they had been laid down by Lenin; and that they were being kept as a matter of almost religious faith by devout Communists. He added that he could not imagine that any devoted Communists would deviate or change from these principles although he admitted that as world conditions change, there might be some slight fluctuations in the approach that Communists might seemingly give toward their dedication of Communist principles.

The Prime Minister interrupted the start of his analysis to say that he thought the President was looking very well; he said that he had seen him Tuesday night on television when the President made his report to the American people on the South American trip,² and that he looked a little tired. This, the Prime Minister said, caused him some concern, but he was pleased to see the President looking so well in person. The President said that any appearance on television always brought different shades of opinion on how he looked, that some people in his own family would say he looked well while others would say he looked not so well. He said it was a matter of lighting, etc., but that all in all, he felt very well.

The Prime Minister, continuing his analysis of the Communist position, said that the world was divided into two incompatible camps—one, the Communist world, and second, the world the Communists call the Capitalist world. He said that devoted Communists were convinced that the only solution for humanity was Communism, that worldwide Communism was inevitable and that, in his belief, Communists were unshakeable in the ultimate triumph of their system. He added that despite the fact that at times Communists seemed to be friendly toward the free world, they are doing so only for their own ends since they cannot accept freedom and feel that they must dominate the world, either by force if use of such force does not entail great risks or a world war, or by subversion and the weakening of peoples within individual nations.

The Prime Minister said that as far as he was concerned, the Communist phrase, “co-existence” means to a Communist that the rest of the world must accept the existing Communist world as it is and not interfere with it, but that it does not mean that they have not the right to interfere as they wish with the free world. In other words, he added, co-existence is really, as far as the Communists are concerned, a one-sided co-existence.

He said that Communists may make temporary compromises and might even allow a certain amount of relaxation in some of their satellites. He pointed to Poland as an example of this and said that in Poland there is a great deal of internal freedom, but that it really doesn’t mean anything because the Poles occupy a large part of the old German Empire which they cannot keep without Soviet assistance and therefore are dependent upon the Soviets to keep the land they now have.

The Prime Minister also contended that the Russian people themselves have accepted Communism and that they are proud of what Communism is doing, not only in their own country but throughout the world. He said that there are certain changes occurring within Russia, that the Russian people do have and are getting an increased standard of living, that they want also to have a little more contact with people abroad, but that he was certain that during the next ten years there would be no change in the Soviet regime—in fact, he insisted that the Communist leaders can rely on internal support of the regime by the Russian people and that the Russian people would not rise against the regime. He also said that if the Communist leaders of Russia find that it is necessary to cut back on the stand ards of living, they could safely do so in a second, and that the Russian people would accept it.

He said that Premier Khrushchev is trying to improve the standards of living of his people, is trying to permit more freedom of expression with the attendant lessening of fear of such freedom of expression, but that basically the Soviet leaders could rely on support from their people.

He said that this was true in the satellites who he contended were absolutely dependent on Russia for their existence. Referring again to Poland, he said the Russians know the Poles hate them, but that the Poles needed the Russians to maintain the gains the Poles achieved at the end of World War II.

Referring to propaganda, the Prime Minister said that he must say “something unpleasant”, but the fact was that the Communists are superior to the West in propaganda. He said the Russian propaganda was more progressive, more worldwide, and more steady day by day.

He also said that Premier Khrushchev’s visit was more of a deliberate good will visit than anything else.³ He said that the real example of Communist policy was Mikoyan’s visit to Cuba where the Russians showed their true colors.⁴

In dealing with propaganda, the Prime Minister said that the future of the free world necessitates more unity, more strength and more confidence between the nations and peoples of the free world. He added that there must be more understanding of the psychology of the newly-independent people and that the United States must take the lead in giving these newly-independent people a clearer vision of the future which stresses the dignity of man, the unity of the human race, and the fact that all peoples can achieve eventually the same standards of living. “This is particularly true,” he said, “in Asia and Africa where people must be encouraged to develop their own resources and encouraged to think that we agree with them on the fact that there is but one human race.” The United States and the West must not regard them as inferior peoples, must not present ourselves as superior human beings, but instead treat all alike. The Prime Minister said that this important emphasis was missing in our propaganda, that we must present a vision of the future, a unity of the human race and equality of individuals if we are to win the battle of the minds that is presently going on in this world.

Turning to a discussion of Africa, the Prime Minister said that he had personally met with representatives of most of the African countries. He said that Africa was really divided into three sections—first, North Africa, with its vestiges of French and Spanish colonialism; second, South Africa, which he said he would not speak about because he deplored the racial conflict in the British-occupied or dominated territories, and third, Black Africa. He said that it is Black Africa that he would like to speak about at present.

In discussing Black Africa, he insisted that all the countries of Black Africa were against Communism, but that it was not enough to be against Communism, that the free world would have to give these nations something to be for. In this connection, he stressed the fact that the West must not try to make over Black Africa in the West’s image, but that it must partially help them to elevate themselves and to raise their own standards of living. He said that the Blacks themselves realized that it was impossible for them to gain overnight—or even in the future—the economic development of a United States, a France or an England. He pointed out, however, that many Black African emissaries have come to Israel and have studied the methods of settlement which the Israelis are developing in their territories. These settlements are comparatively small, in comparison to Western ideals, but the Black Africans think they would be suitable for them. These settlements entail a great deal of mutual help and self-labor.

The Prime Minister said that he had had many African leaders tell him that they can’t imagine the possibility of reaching American, British or French standards at the present time, but that they believe they can meet the standards of Israeli settlements. It is important, he said, to encourage them in this belief, to give them confidence at home.

The Prime Minister stressed the point that in dealing with Black Africa, material help is important—that man cannot live on bread alone. But what is most important is that Black Africans get the feeling that the Western world has confidence in them, wants to raise their standards of living, wants to give them dignity and most important of all, has no feeling of superiority over them. He repeated that they are in deadly fear of Communism and that they must be given a vision of the future.

In turning to a discussion of the Mid East, the Prime Minister opened the discussion by quoting from a letter of the President to him in which the President said that the “independence and integrity of the nations of the Middle East are vital to peace.”⁵ He likewise referred to a letter from John Foster Dulles⁶ in which the former Secretary of State raised four points as follows:

1. That the United States favors legitimate Arab national goals;

2. That there was an urgent necessity to strengthen the bulwarks of international organizations to protect those nations that are determined to be free;

3. That the world community must preserve the independence of these nations; and

4. That Israel must be brought to a position where it is able to resist attack from indigenous local forces.

As to point #1, the Prime Minister said that while he could not be impartial on the Arabs because “our life is at stake”, as far as he could he would agree with this point.

In discussing Iraq, he said that at first his government had doubts about Iraq and that at one time they feared that Iraq was moving into the Communist orbit. Today, however, he said he is assured that Iraq is a strong non-Communist nation and that they should be encouraged in their efforts to stay out of the orbit of Communist influence.

As far as Iran is concerned, the Prime Minister said that Israel had good relations with Iran, and that in a talk he had recently with the Shah, he was convinced that Iraq was not headed for Communism. This, he said, was a very important step in the Middle East. He said that the Shah had told him that he was doing his best through the establishment of modern farms to raise the standards of his peasants and to improve the lot of his people. He said that Israeli experts at the Shah’s request were going to Iran to help the Shah with this work.

In turning to a discussion of what he labeled, “Israeli problems”, the Prime Minister raised the following points.

1. Summit Meeting. In referring to the Summit Meeting, the Prime Minister said that he hoped something good would come out of it. He said that it is impossible to understand how Premier Khrushchev’s mind functions, but that the Summit Meeting might be a test of whether Khrushchev is for peace or whether he wants to keep the world in a turmoil. If he is strong for peace, the Prime Minister said, he could do something.

He pointed out that several years ago after Khrushchev’s visit to London, the Soviets and the British issued a joint statement on April 26, 1956,⁷ supporting the United Nations in taking the initiative for a peaceful settlement on a mutually acceptable basis of Israeli-Arab differences. He said that if Khrushchev at the Summit Meeting would agree to saying that the status quo should be maintained in the Middle East and that the independence and integrity of all states in that section should be guaranteed, this would be an important contribution to peace.

Turning next to the discussion of the question of Israeli security, the Prime Minister said that at the present time Israel was faced with the problem which would ultimately result in whether they were to remain a free, independent nation or whether they were going to be exterminated. He said that while it was impossible for this to happen, he was sure that if Nasser were to send his Army into Israel tomorrow and defeated the Israeli Army, he would exterminate the Jews just as Hitler exterminated them in Germany.

He admitted with a wry smile that this couldn’t happen, but said he was convinced that this is what Nasser would do if he were victorious in any war with the Israelis. The Prime Minister said that the Jews had been fighting for survival for four thousand years, that the Israeli Republic was “our last stand”—that the formation of the Israeli Republic represented the fulfillment of the prayers of Jews over thousands of years.

He said that at present Nasser was making six or seven speeches a day, saying that the time has come to destroy the Jewish nation. He added grimly the following sentence: “Mr. President, the Jews will fight to the last. I know this phrase is commonly used but I assure you, you may take it literally.”

He said that he did not believe the Jewish nation should be destroyed, that it had much to offer, not only to the area but to world civilization. Throughout the rest of his remarks, he kept repeating the statement, “I believe we have the right to existence.”

The Prime Minister said that right now the Israeli nation was in grave danger. He said Egyptian forces are moving in and near the borders of Israel as are the Syrians. He said that the UAR is superior in armaments, that their armed forces are numerically larger than those of the Israeli government. He pointed out that Egypt was a nation of 25 million, Syria a nation of 5 million—and Israeli a nation of 2 million.

He also reported to the President that recently the Russians had sent 400 instructors to Egypt to train 4000 Egyptian aviators. These instructors have told the Egyptians that they are trying to improve, not the quality of the Egyptian equipment but the quality of the Egyptian equipment. [sic]

He also reported that at the present time Egyptian bombers can carry three tons of bombs, but that the new bombers they were getting from the Soviet bloc will be able to carry ten tons of bombs, that he expected they could send 50 bombers over Tel Aviv a day and destroy Tel Aviv without too much trouble.

The Prime Minister ran through a list of military equipment which went like this:

• The UAR has a thousand more tanks than we have,
• 450 more armored vehicles than we have,
• 450 more heavy mortars,
• 2500 more anti-tank guns,
• 350 more anti-aircraft guns,
• 280 more jets,
• 80 more bombers,
• 30 more helicopters,
• 30 more torpedo boats.

He also said that the Egyptians have eight submarines at their disposal.

The Prime Minister said that if war should come, Israeli’s defeat would mean “our complete destruction.” He repeated that the Israelis would fight to the last and said that it would be a grave responsibility for the world if the world let war come to this area.

In conclusion, the Prime Minister repeated his statements that Israel had a “right to exist”. He said that the outcome of whether there would be war or peace in the area depends a great deal upon President Eisenhower’s understanding and good will to their nation in the days that lie ahead.

President Eisenhower, in responding, said that he quite agreed with the Prime Minister on his analysis of Communism, its aims and its unchangeable goals. He also said that he agreed with his analysis on Asia, Africa and on the Middle East in principle.

The President likewise said that he would agree with the Prime Minister on his criticism of American propaganda. He said that the Americans are not very good propagandists, never had been, and that as a matter of fact, the word “propaganda” had been a wicked word for a long time. The President said that he thought our propaganda could be improved and that all free nations should band together to present a united front.

Turning specifically to the Middle East, the President said that the United States had tried to keep out of the arms race in the Middle East, that while we have given technical aid to that area, the United States believes we should be friends to both sides so that we would be able to act as a mediator in any disputes that arise. The President said that he could understand the Prime Minister’s concern about the dangers that confronted his nation, but that he frankly believed the nations of Western Europe—France, Great Britain, and even West Germany—could better supply arms to Israel than could the United States. This would permit the United States freedom to carry out its goal of trying to bring peace to the region without in any way taking a side in the arms race with any nation in that region.

He said that American policy, however, would not stand for the destruction of any nation in the Middle East and that he could assure the Prime Minister that the United States and the Government of the United States had no lack of admiration for the accomplishments of the Israeli nation and for its sturdiness. The United States is not indifferent to the future of Israel and the United States certainly agrees that Israel has a right to exist.

In the long run, however, the President said he does not believe the security lies in arms. He promised the Prime Minister that the Administration people, particularly the State Department, would carefully study the suggestions and proposals of the Prime Minister of Israel, but that the Prime Minister must realize that the United States did not want to establish itself as a partisan supporter of any nation in the Middle East. This position must be maintained if American influence is to be used in bringing peace to the area and preventing the outbreak of open warfare.

J.C. Hagerty

1. Source: Eisenhower Library, Whitman File, Project Clean Up. Top Secret. Drafted by Hagerty. Ben Gurion visited Washington March 9–13 during a trip to the United States. A collection of briefing papers and schedules for the Washington part of the trip are in Department of State, Conference Files: Lot 64 D 559, CFs 1613–1615. Another memorandum of this conversation, drafted by Jones, is ibid., CF 1615.
2. For text of this report, March 8, see Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1960–61, pp. 282–287.
3. Khrushchev visited the United States in September 1959.
4. Mikoyan visited Cuba in February 1960.
5. Regarding this letter, see footnote 2, Document 31.
6. Document 32.
7. For text of this joint statement, see Documents on International Affairs, 1956 (London, 1959), pp. 638–641.