Office of the Historian

135. Memorandum of Telephone Conversation Between the Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs (Harriman) and Michael V. Forrestal of the National Security Council Staff0

Washington, December 11, 1963, 6:45 p.m.

Harriman said he thought Cambodia is more important than Laos as an infiltration. . . .

Forrestal said he believed he said that in his memorandum about Cambodia.1 The sea frontier is the place where the supplies come in.

Forrestal said the first priority has nothing to do with the border.

Harriman said you are diverting attention.

Harriman told Forrestal that if he talked to Bob2 about this he hoped he would talk particularly about the problems of Cambodia. He said you have seen the latest take and it is quite distressing. We still want to see if our Amb could produce something.

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Forrestal said that when he left Honolulu he was told there would be no decision made on cross-border operation.3 He said he came here and found they are ready to go.

Harriman said nobody has agreed to it.

Forrestal said Kaysen is going out.

Harriman said Bill4 is going too.

Forrestal said the Pentagon has the responsibility and has the control.

Harriman didn’t think this was true.

Forrestal insisted they did. He said he talked to McCone and says they have no control.

Harriman said Bill is not under this impression.

Forrestal asked where the messages come in if we don’t see them any more. He said that is why we don’t have control any more.

Harriman said Bill saw a few but they divulged nothing.

Forrestal said the only ones Bill could see are the old CIA ones. He said whenever CIA is in control, we are okay. He said it is important to have Leonard5 come down and explain.

Harriman said he was not worried about seeing this thing approved. He said he thought it was okay for him to come down. Also they are afraid there may be some shooting from the other side. If you want him to come down, okay. Unger has to be briefed and be told to have a stiff back.

  1. Source: Library of Congress, Manuscript Division, Harriman Papers, Memoranda of Telephone Conversations. No classification marking. Transcribed in Harriman’s office.↩
  2. Not found.↩
  3. Apparently Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. No record of a McNamara–Forrestal conversation has been found.↩
  4. Reference is to a contemplated cross-border operation into Laos to obtain information on infiltration down the Ho Chi Minh trail.↩
  5. Apparently William P. Bundy.↩
  6. Ambassador to Laos Leonard Unger.↩