793.94/3154¾
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation70
Secretary: Hello General. I wanted to give you a suggestion which the President has made. The President has suggested that it might be well for the Council to make a formal offer to Japan before they adjourn.
Dawes: I do not get that.
Secretary: I say, the President has suggested that the Council might make a formal offer to Japan. We are afraid that if the matter is left——When is the Council going to adjourn?
Dawes: They are going to adjourn this afternoon.
Secretary: I see it is too late to get anything in now.
Dawes: This is what happened. Since the despatch that I sent I have heard the situation in Japan, according to Matsudaira, continues critical and there is a possibility of an advance by the Japanese troops. It seems to me that there was a possibility of delaying this advance and that a statement of the misunderstanding which existed between Japan and China as to the neutral zone negotiations might have a helpful effect upon the public sentiment of both countries and the neutral zone negotiations. I prepared a statement which I submitted to Briand and to Matsudaira and Drummond and which all have approved as something which should be made public as the Chinchow pact. I have agreed to make it before the last meeting of the Council. The statement is based upon the authority contained in your 643 and your attitude in the neutral zone negotiations as conveyed to me by telephone last night. Matsudaira will approve the statement personally but he does not want this fact made public because of the critical condition in his own Government and he does not know what will happen there.
Secretary: What doesn’t he want made public?
Dawes: Matsudaira will approve the statement but he does not want this fact made public, because of the political situation of his own government and he does not know what will happen there, or what effect his approval will have.
Secretary: His approval of what statement? Who is going to make the statement?
[Page 664]Dawes: I am going to make the statement with the approval of Briand, Sze, Matsudaira and Drummond. It was also submitted to Yoshizawa. I am dictating the statement but I do not know whether it is best to go before the Council.
Secretary: That is entirely in your discretion.
Dawes: Let me read you the statement:
[Here follows text in garbled form. For text of proposed statement, see telegram No. 871, December 10, 5 p.m., from the Chargé in France, printed infra.]
Now I just got a telephone call from Briand and they want me to come over there and make a statement before the Council. Sweetser telephoned me that Briand would not make the statement but they approved positively of it and whether they approve or disapprove, they are agreed that the statement be made but of course it is made on our own responsibility. They want me to come over there and I will not go to the meeting but will just go to Briand’s office, and after the resolution is passed, I will make the statement.
Secretary: On whose authority is your statement made?
Dawes: It is made on my authority. That is an explanation of the misunderstanding. What Briand is a little afraid of is that a mistake was made by the French Government and he doesn’t want the responsibility but they all recognize the importance of having a public statement made of the reasons why that negotiation has been stopped. That is what he said in effect because it is critical to the French Government and that is the reason for the responsibility in the matter. That may do good. It has been approved by all of them.
Secretary: That is pretty important and you have got to give me time to think that over. What is the authority for the facts which you state? You say that there has been a misunderstanding between the two governments.
Dawes: Matsudaira and Koo [Sze?] say that it will help both Governments in public opinion in going on with these negotiations for a neutral zone. This thing is between Matsudaira, Sze and myself to get a statement of it–—
Secretary: Does the statement involve any criticism on the French for the mistake?
Dawes: It does not. Not at all.
Secretary: Read that part again.
Dawes: The misunderstanding arose as follows: [Here follows repetition of text of statement beginning with the words “Dr. Wellington Koo” in the second paragraph (also garbled).]
Secretary: Here is my point. The suggestion would be eminently appropriate to come from the President of the Council.
Dawes: What was that?
[Page 665]Secretary: It would be eminently appropriate if it came from Briand, the President of the Council, and I see a number of objections to your making it on the part of this country in the League. I am a little afraid of that. I want the suggestion to be made and I do not see how it can do any harm in the negotiations but those negotiations have been carried on by the League and this thing we brought to the attention of the League as a friendly outsider.
Dawes: When it was presented to them—the explanation of this Chinchow expedition and the reasons why it was stopped—there was no objection to it but they wanted it to be made for the effect it would have upon public sentiment in the two countries—Japan and China. It has nothing to do with the resolution and so far as the League is concerned, the Chinchow matter is left alone by them. They felt that the Japanese …71 of the zone statement made as an explanation of [on?] my responsibility. I can personally make this statement and that will cover it.
Secretary: You say now that you will be willing to make it personally on your own authority.
Dawes: On my own authority. The explanation will be made in no other way because the French Government would like the explanation made but they do not want to do it because it would be a concession that an error was made. If I make the statement individually, I can make it after the Council.
Secretary: It could go just the same way to the two governments, and give them an opportunity to get their public opinion under control.
Dawes: What?
Secretary: If you made it yourself outside. You see General here is the situation. It is a very important and dramatic thing to have this suggestion made and it is really going into the negotiations which have been carried on entirely by the League in a most important and dramatic way and if this Government should do it in the meeting of the League, I think it would give very strong color to the fact that we had intruded into these negotiations in a most emphatic way and I am a little afraid of that. I think really the best way to do it would be the one I suggested, that Briand as President ought to do it, but if he will not do it, I will consider having you do it personally outside.
Dawes: That is right. I will make this as a personal statement.
Secretary: Who would you make the statement to?
Dawes: Probably have no statement to make.
Secretary: You do not understand me. How would you get it to have any effect upon the Japanese and Chinese Governments?
Dawes: They both want it done.
[Page 666]Secretary: You do not understand. How would it be delivered to them?
Dawes: I will tell you what we had better do, if we are not going to the Council or give anything out–—
Secretary: If they are trying to get us to do anything as important as that, they will have to give me time to think that over.
Dawes: It didn’t come from them, it originated from me.
Secretary: They want us to do it and it is very important and in my opinion it ought to be done in some way. We want to be careful not to lose the opportunity to have that suggestion of misunderstanding made by somebody. I will have to have time to think it over.
Dawes: I will telephone you tonight about five o’clock and not do anything in the meantime.
Secretary: By that time the Council will be adjourned.
Dawes: Yes, it will, but I just got this before you telephoned.
Secretary: I do not think the Council ought to adjourn finally until after you have had time to consider this and they have had time to consider this. I don’t want them to get away from Paris.
Dawes: Sweetser just telephoned that Sze does not approve the statement now. I couldn’t give it now if I wanted to.
Secretary: Be careful, don’t do it without letting me know. Here is what I tried to say to you in the beginning. In the first place I think you ought to urge on Briand to make some such statement as this on his part. He is the man to do it.
Dawes: Drummond came over here and I suggested that the League make the statement—the Council has twelve fellows over there—and they ran into a long discussion and adjourned without doing anything about it. I suggested that the League make this statement and Matsudaira and Sze agreed and then Drummond took it over to Briand for some other suggestions but now I have Sze’s final word that he is not satisfied and they want to close the meeting.
Secretary: No it doesn’t necessarily. I think they ought to keep up trying to get that statement made in some form. I suggest this——
Dawes: They want to get away. I have tried to get them to agree in meetings but it always ended in long discussions and then I tried my hand this morning and got Sze and Matsudaira to agree and Drummond and Briand, but now Sze just sent word that he doesn’t approve.
Secretary: You can not do it now, but do not give it up; Sze might change his mind. I want to tell you this, that if you can finally get a statement made to which they all agree, I think that it should be made by Briand. Briand could say that it was something that he had discussed with you.
Dawes: I do not think Briand personally wants to make it.
[Page 667]Secretary: He is trying simply to jockey you into doing this. Don’t let him do that. He will do it if he can. I think he will come around.
Dawes: The Council is meeting here and is in session now and it would be impossible to do anything with him about it.
Secretary: In that respect you will have to let it go. I think it is a great pity if they will not be willing to take one more adjournment in order to try out this very important thing. I think representations ought to be made to them. Here they have spent three or four weeks on only half of it and here is the most important half in sight of success and the only possible half in sight of success, and I think they ought to be willing to stay one more day on the chance of fixing it up and I think you ought to make that representation to them now.
Dawes: Chance of fixing it up?
Secretary: Get a message to them in some way. Make it pretty strong that you think they ought to hold the meeting over.
Dawes: I will try to do that.
Secretary: Then we will have time to find some way of accomplishing this and possibly get the Chinese back again.
Dawes: Sze objected to the proposed statement.
Secretary: I think the statement is all right but I do not see how it can be made except by somebody in the meeting and the man who ought to make it is Briand. He could make it as something that he had discussed with you. He could make it as something which had been brought to his attention by you.
Dawes: I will try that. The position of the League is that they believe that the Chinchow matter should be left alone. Just better let the thing stand, that is what the League has decided.
Secretary: There is another thing I was going to say when I called you up and that was would not the atmosphere be cleared on the side of the League if they should make a formal offer to Japan to have observers notify them of any aggressions on the part of China. It is not very clear now—there has been so much discussion—but the President—President Hoover thought that a formal offer to Japan of having military observers report any activities by the Chinese forces in the zone would put it up to Japan if she ever made a move contrary to the information thus obtained. Do you see what I mean?
Dawes: I do not get all that, just say it again.
Secretary: At present Japan is threatening to move down into this Zone.
Dawes: I didn’t get that.
Secretary: At this moment General, General Honjo’s army is said to be threatening to make a move toward Chinchow. In order to put them in the wrong if they do that, ought not the League to make a [Page 668] formal offer to put in their possession the information on the part of the observers.
Dawes: They can not get anything on them.
Secretary: Stick to your other point, stick to it, you have a good thought there and I hope something will be brought out of it.
Dawes: I will make the suggestion that Briand can make it if he wants to but I do not think he will do it. They will not take it up. We have done our best any way.
Secretary: Goodbye.